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NRA in self-defense mode

January 17, 2013

Between President Barack Obama laying out his plan to fight gun violence and New York state enacting the state’s toughest gun restrictions, it’s been a tough week for the National Rifle Association....

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(38)

commonman

Jan-30-13 8:37 PM

PropagandaSon, ease up. Are you trying to brainwash everyone by shouting over them? The volume of vitriole is astounding, please seek a therapist.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-24-13 9:29 AM

"Based on the data and what you've been advocating Prod..."~h75

Actually, I've taken no position, advocated nothing, nor aligned with any partisan political ideology.

I've simply challenged the fallacies presented. I've offered facts & figures from verifiable sources in order to determine the truth.

You're still stuck on "nu-uh".

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ProdigalSon

Jan-24-13 9:19 AM

Something was bothering me about that MN Police Officer's Memorial. OSHA lists 10 police fatalities over ten years in MN. 3 of those were heart attacks, unrelated to their job. They weren't performing heroic feats, most weren't even on duty. Of the 4 or 5 remaining, one died of an unrelated brain aneurysm. One listed died 12 years after he had left police work, dying of drug toxicity. Another was found dead in the parking lot, his department won't release a cause of death. Another was ran over. By another cop.

I like full disclosure. We've lost as many librarians in the line of duty as police.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-23-13 10:42 PM

I have recent law enforcement figures, local and national.

In the past 10 years, 16 police officers are LISTED as dying in the line of duty with the MN Memorial. Nationally, there are 12 listed for MN, same time period, and OSHA shows 10 total police the past ten years.

3 died of heart attacks, one on a tread mill off duty, 2 in single car wrecks.

In it's history, Lyon Co has lost one officer, Arnold Borson, Ghent town cop, on 08-22-1936 when he surprised a burglar.

You can't sue the police for standing by while you are assaulted. In most cases, police action is closer to establishing dominance than it is to protect a citizen.

And there's no Santa Claus.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-23-13 10:32 PM

All this has played out before. Wash DC has had a gun ban. In the name of safety, constitutional rights were taken. Then DC failed to provide protection and were sued. The case was Warren v. District of Columbia. The court determined a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." The Supreme Court upheld it.

The police know this. They don't like us to know this.

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hartman75

Jan-23-13 11:49 AM

"The general rule of law in the United States is that no law enforcement officer has any duty to aid or protect you from a crime."

Any person involved with law enforcement would take offense to your statement Prod and to the idiot who agreed with your assessment. Do me a favor, contact the Minnesota Law Enforcement Memorial Association and share your views with them. I'm sure they and the family members of law enforcement killed in the line of duty, would appreciate you views.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-21-13 10:18 AM

"Have any statistics which indicate how often police officers have saved lives?"~h75

The general rule of law in the United States is that no law enforcement officer has any duty to aid or protect you from a crime. The FBI nor any other source has any statistics indicating police protect. Deriving any meaningful statistics from a myth is hard at best. This isn't a myth:

Citizens use guns almost nine times as frequently as the police to repel crime and apprehend criminals and they do it safer than the police. About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person. About 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person.

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hartman75

Jan-20-13 11:11 PM

"we are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist."

Based on the data and what you've been advocating Prod, we should be arming ourselves to defend against police officers. Yeah, that makes sense. Have any statistics which indicate how often police officers have saved lives? Probably a few more times than armed civilians.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-20-13 8:41 AM

"You can spin statistics to prove ANY point you want Prod."~h75

Have I distorted any statistic, or have you arbitrarily dismissed, discounted, disregarded or flat out ignored anything that disagrees with your biases and opinions?

You come across as a posting contradiction. You claim nobody wants to take our guns, yet will mock anyone possessing a firearm for home defense.

By your reasoning, a 73 year old who's physical condition puts his ability to ward off a home invasion with his fists in the rear view mirror, essentially has rights to self preservation with an expiration date on them. By your reasoning, there should be no expectation of survival beyond your ability to claw for it.

And a 110 lb woman vs a 230 lb rapist is simply nature taking it's course.

Reason is not your strong suit.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-19-13 8:34 AM

"I have faith in our local law enforcement."~h75

I don't mean to mess with your sense of security h75, but the National Safety Council released a report based on data from The National Center for Health Statistics and the U.S. Census Bureau that we are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist.

Seems they both have the same goals, it's just that one side is more committed.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-18-13 9:00 PM

"There has NEVER been a study that statistically proves the presence of a gun or gun ownership is related in any way to the rate of violent or non-violent crime."~h75

Really? In 1982, the Kennesaw, Georgia City Council unanimously passed a law requiring heads of households to own at least one firearm with ammunition. The ordinance states the gun law is needed to "protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants."

Following the law's passage, the crime rate dropped 89 percent in the city, compared to the modest 10 percent drop statewide.

Look at Switzerland. They have a close to one-hundred percent firearms ownership, since all adult males are members of the Swiss Militia, and are required by law to keep firearms in the home--including full-autos.

Also check the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, and the Cato Institute. There's more.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-18-13 7:42 PM

"If you’re that scared of dying before your time then change your diet. "~hartman75

So by this logic...the child victims of Newtown's time was up?

If this was fate, no amount of gun grabbing would have stopped it, right?

I don't think their "time was up". I think we created victim rich environments where someone driven by a short circuited mind knew they could inflict widespread harm, unrestricted. Notice these shooters end their own lives when they are confronted with any defense. A staff member with a snub nose may have been all the confrontation Adam Lanza needed.

And it might of been all those kids of Newtown needed.

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rangeral

Jan-18-13 4:25 PM

You stand a greater risk of death or injury by lightning, hartman.

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hartman75

Jan-18-13 4:24 PM

You can spin statistics to prove ANY point you want Prod. There has NEVER been a study that statistically proves the presence of a gun or gun ownership is related in any way to the rate of violent or non-violent crime. What IS statistically true (and logical) is that the presence of a gun increases the risk of death attributed to guns. Knowing that violent crime exists doesn’t warrant the need to keep a loaded gun around. The fact is, I stand a greater risk of death or injury when in the presence of a loaded weapon, whether the gun’s in my possession or not.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-18-13 1:27 PM

"So logically speaking Prod, I should be willing to kill or die to protect my furniture, computer, tools, car, my kick*** stereo and album collection?" ~h75

That's a purely personal determination h75. Logic tells me I can replace goods cheaper than fund a criminal defense. You wouldn't want me on your jury if you were tried for killing someone for simple burglary. You ignore the realities of violent crime here...74 murders, 1664 rapes, 3386 robberies, 6701 assaults, all in Minnesota last year. Your chances of being a victim of a violent crime is 1 in 39. The Marshall crime index is 25 out of 100, meaning 75% of the state is a safer place to live.

The police have no obligation to intercede, often are too far away if they wanted to. That's a reality. What's the next logical responsible action a citizen takes to protect their family. Family, not your bong collection.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-18-13 12:39 PM

I don't know that everyone should be armed h75. I know disarming everyone doesn't work. In Washington DC they have the strictest gun possession restrictions in the world. They also have a murder rate of 80.6 per 100,000. A few hundred yards away in Arlington, Va, the murder rate is 1.6 per 100,000. The open carry of a handgun has never been restricted there.

What do you conclude from this h75?

DC has more cops than anywhere else in the world between the DC Metro Police, US Marshals, the US Dept of Justice supplies Sheriff duties there with several hundred officers, Metro Transit Police, US Capitol Police, Secret Service, Park Police, Protective Services Police Department. None are obligated to save your _ss. They're not.

Virginians have the option of firearms for self defense.

Kind of makes a number of points, doesn't it?

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hartman75

Jan-18-13 12:03 PM

So logically speaking Prod, I should be willing to kill or die to protect my furniture, computer, tools, car, my kick*** stereo and album collection? I really enjoy listening to my Grateful Dead albums but hey, I can always buy more. In truth, guns are nothing more than a tool for the weak.

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hartman75

Jan-18-13 11:48 AM

Prod, you question my logic but you can't read? Please point out any statement where I claim all guns should be eliminated.

So far, those who favor no limitations on gun ownership have offered nothing but propaganda and excuses that border on the absurd. ie: “I can only shoot 30 rounds at gophers before I have to reload…without guns we can’t defend ourselves against the govt when they (fill in the blank)…the 2nd amendment protects my right to own a semi-automatic with a 30 round clip”. We need to keep guns out of the hands of the imbalanced. How? Prod, Wharog, et al are telling us EVERYONE should be armed since that’s the ONLY way to ensure our safety – we can’t trust the police or the govt, yet MY logic is questioned? The NRA and gun nuts have done a great job of making some believe the 2nd amendment is being threatened. Fortunately there are a majority of Americans who have much more sense. Let hope Congress decides to represent the majority of Americans for a change.

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ProdigalSon

Jan-18-13 10:56 AM

Let's look at this logic issue you have hartman75.

By your reasoning, we must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any moment.

Got it.

You seem to want to drive this point home with this:

Anyone who would own a gun out of concern of such a lunatic is paranoid.

Do you see the conflict there?

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ProdigalSon

Jan-18-13 10:43 AM

If you are that desperate or callous or hateful that you feel the need to steal from me rangeral, go for it. Nothing I own is worth dying or killing for."~h75

I think that paraquat they warned us about ate away your instincts for survival h75. If you are indeed operating with corrupted software, it'll be hard for those with other resources to rely on your conclusions. One method of testing for bad mental software is to check for the presence of logic.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but yer coming up short on that....

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ProdigalSon

Jan-18-13 10:15 AM

"I have faith in our local law enforcement."~h75

I too have faith in the local police. They're great at extorting money from out of town travelers and using SWAT tactics on high school kids. If you don't live in the city of Marshall, police response is closer to half an hour than it is to eight minutes. Not much assurance when seconds count. Some civics understanding may ease some of your hysterics. Like this one:

"..a fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." Warren v. District of Columbia

This means the only people the police are duty-bound to protect are criminals in custody. YOU have no recourse if the police fail to respond or fail to protect you from injury.

And sorry, I can't get behind the idea that a woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

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Wharog

Jan-18-13 8:30 AM

Commonman: Actually it is a right and it's enumerated in the Bill of Rights...the same document that gives you the right the free speech in order for you to say such unintelligent drivel.

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Wharog

Jan-18-13 8:27 AM

Hartman: Try doing a Google news search for "Home Invasion". Happens all over the US on seemingly a daily basis. Did you know that a few of the Marshall burglaries were home invasions that happened while the homeowners were at home? The Independent seems to leave that important little detail out.

Firearms are tools that are useful for hunting, sport, self defense, and defense from a tyrannical government whether foreign or domestic. It seems to me that all the folks in favor of removing firearms from law-abiding citizens through "gun control" measures are actually pro-gun. It's just that they are only pro-gun when it comes to people in power having them, ie police and a government that is already off its rocker. Personally, I have a LOT more faith in my ability to protect myself than I do the police or government. I'm sorry that so many folks have been brainwashed into thinking that the police, in current times, are there to protect them. Good luck with tha

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merioncooper

Jan-18-13 8:20 AM

Al, read up on the freedom of information act. The president's kids attend a private school. You cannot use the freedom of information act to learn the names of other students there, nor could you use it to get information like teachers salaries. Teacher pay is easily available at public schools but even there the freedom of information act will not get you the names of the students. God, what a creepy thing to even suggest. Al, as a parent, you should know better, plus you should know the law.

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rangeral

Jan-17-13 9:29 PM

common - you again are incoherent. So what is your plan and how would it prevent Newtown, Aurora, Gabby Giffords, etc.

The NRA waited to hear what the president's plan was, and like many of us, found it woefully short on solutions. Not one thing about the gang killings in Chicago for starters - what is his fix for that? How would you fix it?

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